Gina and Julie mull over music, marriage, motherhood and Mormonism. In this discussion Julie discusses her commitment to authenticity and her desire to understand herself and give expression to her creative impulses.
Julie has led a colourful life, moving in a whirlwind – tackling compelling and challenging personal projects. A musician, a counsellor, a business woman, a therapist, a media personality, a PhD, and an author – Julie is passionate, creative and committed to communicating with women about how to live full and satisfying lives.
Links Discussed in the Podcast:
Dive Deep CD on iTunes https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/dive-deep/id305680216
Journal Article — “Bringing Partnership Home: A Model of Family Transformation” http://pubs.lib.umn.edu/ijps/vol2/iss1/4/
Website — drjuliehanks.com
The quote that Julie mentioned about misguided adults telling members that they would rather someone come home in a casket rather than having lost their virtue is probably most familiar to Church members from _The Miracle of Forgiveness_ by Spencer W. Kimball. Bishops used to give it out to members who came in needing to confess something, recommending it as part of their repentance process. Some bishops probably still do.
Here are other related quotes from a quote web site:
“You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, except for murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) President Clark, in a conference address in October 1938, said: ‘Chastity is fundamental to our life and to our civilization. If the race becomes unchaste, it will perish. Immorality has been basic to the destruction of mighty nations of the past; it will bring to dust the mighty nations of the present. You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this.’ Now, my dear friends, we know there is nothing new in what we have said. These things are time-tested; they are true. To this we testify.”
-LDS First Presidency Message “We Believe in Being Chaste,” Ensign, Sept. 1981, 3
“Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life – better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: ‘I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.'”
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.
President David O. McKay is quoted in Kimball’s book as follows:
” . . . Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation.”
Heber J. Grant is also quoted in Kimball’s book:
“…There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”
Later in the same book, President Kimball again addresses the matter of Chastity with the elsewhere mentioned paragraph:
“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given OR TAKEN OR STOLEN it can NEVER BE REGAINED. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. IF SHE HAS NOT COOPERATED and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE FAVORABLE position. There is no condemnation where there is NO Voluntary participation. It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.” (emphasis mine)
I think I just threw up a little.
This was such a great conversation! I’m dying to know the Meyers Briggs! It’s my family’s second religion 🙂 are you enfp/ istj? That would be tough. Thanks for such a great candid description of lds motherhood role. I’m going to use that accountant metaphor from now on. Except on accountants. The thing is, some men do follow that path exactly. My father should have been a writer. But went into law because of duty and what a father should do. Patriarchy hurts everyone. Love you Gina.
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Gina!
I’m new to you and I’m so in love with your interview style. I’m a nobody but I’d love for you to interview me just because of how thoughtful your questions are and how much I feel I’d learn about myself!
Nobody is nobody!! 😉
Gina, I’m going through all of your podcasts in reverse order, since I’ve been through several hundred of the MormonStories podcasts and needed something fresh. I too really enjoy your interview style, your calm voice of reason. Of all of the podcasts I’ve listened to so far, and I’ve listened to hundreds, this has been my favorite so far. It saddens me that you’d throw in the towel and resign from the church because we need women like you. Julie, thank you for being you and for sharing your discoveries and your knowledge and experience with us. I’m a creative person who has struggled his entire life to find a place in a church that is so scripted for men. I know it’s a terribly difficult place to be for women, but I don’t know if women realize how really awful it is for men who don’t fit the mold. I have zero desire to ever be a bishop or stake president or any other sort of leader, and I absolutely loathe sports, which is the ONLY thing men in the church do for fun. Being a creative and fun-loving “white man of privilege” literally sucks because it comes with so much burdensome expectation. I know, you’re probably saying “ooooh, pooor baby, you have no idea what being marginalized is like”, and that may be true, but seriously, I don’t WANT all the responsibility. I sometimes sit through 10 hours of meetings on Sunday, and I hate it with a purple passion. If I took every hour I’ve lost in leadership meetings over the past five years and used that time to serve and love people, which is what I’m actually good at, my life would be infinitely better… and I use infinitely in a literal sense. Infinitely! For all those women who want the priesthood, and want to lead and want to run the church, I say “TAKE IT PLEASE! RUN WITH IT! YOU’LL DO AWESOME! I’LL HAPPILY FOLLOW” There’s no bigger lie than that men are more organized than women. I’m not a good multi-tasker like my wife, and most men aren’t, but when I focus on something, I do it incredibly well. I say put the creative, nurturing, intelligent, multi-tasking women in charge of the church on every level for a while and let them mold it for a change. Julie, I hope some day I get to meet you in person. You are an inspiration, and your thoughts about how this is an exciting time in the church, how you see things optimistically, is such a breath of fresh air in the “bloggernacle of doom” that John Dehlin has created. We need a few million more people with your hope, and willingness to work for a better tomorrow by striving with purposeful optimism. You said it perfectly when you said “we’re in this together, there is no other!” Amen, and thank you for sharing with us. -TJ
Hey TJ! Thanks for your comment. I haven’t resigned and don’t have any intention to. Took a bit of a break and now going to church regularly! Thanks for listening.